Wednesday, January 11, 2012

Interviews with prostitutes - part 3

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My next installment regarding interviews/conversations I had with prostitutes. The two other parts are here:

Interviews with prostitutes - part 1

Interviews with prostitutes - part 2

This post will be entirely about one prostitute. I had contact with her in 2006, early 2007. She was 18 years old at that time. She worked in the Geleenstraat in Den Haag. A couple of clients also wrote a review on hookers.nl about their visit to her. She was very vocal on hookers.nl, writing a lot of comments in discussions. I also had contact with her via internal mail. I asked permission to her at that time, to use everything she has said. She said she knows many personal stories of prostitutes. Unfortunately I didn't ask about these stories. I do have the impression that a lot of what this girl tells is not from firsthand experience, but from deduction and theorising.

I sent an internal mail to her in which I asked her a lot of questions. One of these questions is if also many older prostitutes are forced to work in prostitution. She responded with a very long story, read here:

I have no clue who you are, but I find it a good initiative of you, and I think that you will benefit a lot from me.
Only one thing remains a difficult question.
When is a prostitute being forced? I have spoken with a great many girls and women and actually nobody does it for her own pleasure. They all got into it by men and can't easily step out of it just like that anymore. Most only come into contact with pimp-like men so they almost don't know better.
I think it is important to know several things about me, otherwise you don't know how objective my experiences are and about how many girls I can talk.
Since January I have worked behind the windows. I have started in Den Haag, in between in Groningen a couple of times, and I have also worked a couple of times in Amsterdam.
I'm certainly not a dumb girl and many girls who worked sensed that, I worked as a sort of problem-magnet and many relieved their feelings to me.
Women who work will never be able to tell their problems so easily to social workers and clients.
Unfortunately enough, I also had my own problems and I wasn't able to help these girls really well. Once I will take the matter up.
Back to your questions...
For the older ones that I knew it was approximately 50/50, some once did actually start for themselves and just have a family, they really lead a double life.
Yet there also are many who either way have gotten into it by being forced or are still under big pressure of a man.
I only find it really very difficult to properly separate these two. Foreign older women are often isolated. They live with a number of them in one house, a couple of men take care of them (often they supposedly have their own man, but that person must surely have more of them around) and they simply don't know better. Only you can't call this really forced then. Unfortunately.
It is also like this for the younger girls. I mean, come on, all these girls younger than 25 who still could do so many things. No one is born with the idea 'I want to become whore later'. And no one just completely came to the idea oneself to do this.
But okay, so about these younger girls you then probably do know already how many are being forced.
Now your question about the difference between window prostitution and other forms.
No, especially in escort agencies are a great many girls with pimps. Especially the smaller ones.
This is not because I have done it myself, but if I have a new job on the side, either if it is in the snack bar on the corner or behind the windows.. I will gain more in-depth knowledge about it. I try to unravel things as much as possible. Actually I have done my own little research. I have even lots of contact with pimps.. they know that I know what they do, they are also very open about it towards me. They rather see me as a sort of 'friend' than as an enemy.
Because believe me.. with these boys something has just also gone wrong once. With the upbringing or after this. A couple of them have simply grown up with it this way, their father did it, their family all work in this little world [of prostitution].
I absolutely don't justify it, I find it very very bad, but I find that today's girls are also stupid. I have also been stupid myself, I never should have done it, but fortunately I have completely stopped with it for already 1 1/2 month. And not for a million I go standing behind the window anymore. At most to be able to mean something for the girls there.
If you want to know more, or want to hear personal stories from girls whom I met there, just ask really. I gladly want to help you with that.
What are actually your motivations to do this? Soon I will also take a look at your weblog.

(I tell her that many clients don't seem to care about forced prostitution, they seem to think it is a myth, and perhaps they are right. I tell her about my theories, about that I noticed by studying forced prostitution cases that many Dutch forced prostitutes are forced to work in window prostitution. I asked her if also many Dutch prostitutes are forced to work as call girls?)

I only know of the region Den Haag, that many boys let girls work as escort there. Some have even started up their own escort agencies.
Exactly because it is often more difficult for the police to supervise than behind the windows, there are also more minor girls there at the moment.
Illegal small escort agencies have in fact been rounded up in the place where I live ([a city in the northwest of the Netherlands]), which used minor as well as illegal girls.
I just think that this happens everywhere especially on a smaller scale. Where I have also been for a short while is chatgirl.nl, this site is being supervised more and more, but if you present yourself as a possible client then you will get lots of offers from so-called girls. Very often these are ultimately just men (then I say that I am a woman and they want that I also come working for them).
What I have also done for a while is to ask for pimps on TMF chat (that wasn't blocked because a pimp is a 'normal' tough designation nowadays), also lots of boys react there. Half have nothing to do with it, but of many you do notice that they know what they are talking about.
I have also been 'recruited' by a boy myself, albeit out of free will. He quickly saw already that I was much too clever for him and he became a 'normal' friend of mine, although he does know that I actually hate him.
He himself has girls everywhere, in Amsterdam and Den Haag. There are also girls who work at escort agencies and make use of his 'protection' all the same. He doesn't force these girls, but he makes them believe that they can't do without him, with the necessary threats if needed.
I have even had a conversation with one of the 'higher' bosses, officially he has a respectable escort agency, but in the meantime he has many pimps and girls. This way he also had reception houses, where he places girls whom he brought from Yugoslavia for example.

(I ask her if the loverboys in window prostitution are in reality small boys who work for a "bigger boss"?)

First I will try for a moment to answer your questions.
Some loverboys work for bigger ones, or they get into it by chance, they learn it and continue independently.
There are boys who are forced to do this. I know that because I have worked myself in a juvenile prison for a year.
My whole story perhaps sounds a little bit unlikely, but more than a year ago I had an internship as an assistant teacher in [a juvenile prison].
([A juvenile prison]) where there are both many victims as well as 'perpetrators'.
If you want to have more details about that you may also ask that.
I hope that you do believe me, I wouldn't believe anybody who says to experience so many things that quickly, but you may always ask me for details to be able to check.
Okay, so there in [a juvenile prison] I have also got to know boys who were under such big pressure that they had to arrange girls. First it was explained to them over and over again and they had to hand over a large amount of money again to the bigger ones.
A lot of information about this is known internally, I don't know if this is also let outside a lot.

The other question.. about escort agencies, I don't know that so well. I only know myself a couple of examples from Den Haag and my place of residence. These were small, unknown, as well as bigger ones.
I know that even in clubs there are girls working who still have to hand over money to somebody from outside, but it seems to me that it does occur less often.

(I asked her where she saw that forced a prostitute aged 50, in which sector. That could destroy my theory that forced prostitution among relatively older prostitutes (older than 30) occurs far less often. I ask her if many Dutch prostitutes who receive their clients in their own homes are also forced, this form of prostitution is called private reception. I ask her if she is really just 18 years old)

I will try for a moment to answer your questions.
In the meantime I have become 19 years old, but I really was 18 years old when I did this work.
That forced prostitute I indeed saw behind the window. I did see more by the way, but with one I have often talked.
I know that there are girls who actually are being forced in private reception, but much much less than behind the windows. These are as it happens somewhat older persons who do it on the side every now and then. I do know of a couple of illegal houses in Den Haag where girls are really under pressure, but for the outside world they just do private reception.

(I asked her if it is true that many Latin American prostitutes work independently. And does she also know something about Thai prostitutes and African prostitutes?)

I find this difficult, because contact with these women is more difficult anyway. And actually, I have also hardly seen them behind the window. They were in the cheaper streets than where I worked anyway. I do know that there is a whole group of African women in Amsterdam who are under a big pressure of a couple of Dutch (yes, really purely Dutch) men.
I do actually believe that also Latin American women do have somebody 'behind them'. As it happens, it is rather difficult in Amsterdam (for example) to get phone numbers to be able to find a good window, how do they do this when they don't even come from here?
By the way, Thai women hardly work behind the windows, but more often in those Thai massage houses.. Hmm how they come there? No idea. I do only know that they live very isolated and also don't talk very quickly about something when something's going on.
You know what it is? I really don't have the idea that when somebody is without money the first thing what comes to her mind is to start working as a prostitute. Also the women who now work as good as for themselves have once been helped into it by somebody. I have never encountered somebody who wasn't. I can't deny it, but I even had somebody who arranged one thing or another for me in the beginning.

(I asked for her email-address, she gave it to me, but I asked no more questions to her. Actually I should have. Right now I want to know more about personal stories of prostitutes. At that time I was more interested in the big picture, in the numbers. At this moment I am more interested in the details)

Haha, you may always mail me.
You were one of the few who at least opened his eyes.

(But I closed them again. I am a jerk who started to abuse prostitutes again, after so many years of staying clean. Oops, the moral-crusader-side of me boils up again! As I told already, she wrote a lot on the forum section. She responded to a client who said he visited a prostitute who worked for a bad boyfriend)

Approximately 9 out of 10 girls do work for somebody. You don't want to know how many prostitutes have considerable debts...
Some only show it somewhat more clearly to the clients than another person. I know some of them, who work for 40 years already and they still have no penny of their own.
Some have an alcoholic, the other just a boy who comes with beautiful words, and the next one a junky.
I have encountered this in every city where I worked.
You become really sad of all these stories. I haven't yet decided for myself if I find this the 'own fault' of the girls or if I would rather like to do something to these boys. Both actually.
But okay, what can you do about it? Nothing.. at the end they choose for it themselves. If this girl about whom you are talking wants to stop with it or wants to stop with this boy, then she really has to do that herself anyway.
Believe me, nobody else can do this and the more people that say to her how stupid it is what she's doing, the closer she draws herself to him.
I would say; or totally leave it that way, don't visit her, try to forget.
Or keep on visiting her, perhaps these little talks with her mean something to her anyway and you do perhaps help her with that. You notice this for example by how much she pays attention to the time.
You may always ask me private questions about this, I am very honest and open about this and I do know in the meantime how many young girls live in this little world [of prostitution].

(She responded to a topic about what average ladies think about clients of prostitutes)

Hmm average lady.. blabla..
I belong to a somewhat younger generation than most people here and I notice that the 'normal' girls of my age don't accept it.
That is also the reason that I don't tell my girlfriends how I bear the costs of my study.
I even agree with them myself, actually I also don't accept it myself.
This sounds rather contradictory, but I entered it because of financial problems and on the other hand I’m against everything and everybody who is associated with prostitution.
Why? I have always been raised with the respectable image of a man-woman-relationship and I still find that actually you simply have to marry and only should have sex out of love.
So when I have a job myself soon and have no association with this little world anymore, then I will detest it again like always, just like many other people.
Actually doing this work myself has only strengthened this feeling only more, because now I see how many desperate, dependent girls do this work and how often they are psychologically nutty.
I am especially talking about behind the windows, where many Polish, Slovakian and other foreign girls came under false pretences, eventually have or have not accepted it and are not able to do something else now.
Or the young Dutch girls who have entered it because of their boyfriends and almost don't know better now and don't value themselves more than working as a prostitute.
I notice myself how quickly you get used to this little world, even when I still fight so hard against it.
So how do I view (other) prostitutes? I will be very honest, I understand it of myself, I had to make the choice myself what I'm prepared to do for accommodation+study. I have made the difficult choice to be prepared to give my body.
Others? I see them buy expensive things, gamble away their money or spend it on their sweet boyfriends.. I cannot understand this.
Of course I am also not a saint and I also do buy as consolation a little something more than the average student, but I only work when I really need money.
I can only imagine that you do this work when your feelings and thoughts have become so flattened that you only see the money and that you don't need to 'feel' the rest.
I don't want to attack anybody personally, everybody has one’s own story, that I don't understand people is something other than that I don't respect them, I have respect for every living human.

(She responded to a topic about how to identify possible loverboy practices)

Very positive that men want to help, really very good.. but… In the meantime I know really a little bit myself how things go in this little world [of prostitution] and like I have said before; 9 out of 10 girls behind the window work under force, or are clearly under the thumb of their sweet boyfriend.
Suppose that a girl really works under force and is being molested and that this lasts longer than a couple of weeks.. I am convinced that you can't do much for her. She will have to go to the police herself, another person can't do this for her. I have also tried it a couple of times and even when such a girl trusts me (a colleague) more easily than a client, until now I have achieved little with it.
On the one hand they often want to be helped, but on the other hand they are so used to this life, they do actually find it exciting or they love their boyfriend so much all the same that these thoughts win from the negative ones. I also don't understand this myself, but that's how it often is.
So according to me, what can you do best as a visitor in such a case when you have suspicions? Take care that in any case she knows that she can be sheltered when she goes to the police. There are many shelters in the Netherlands for ex-prostitutes where they are being helped and protected. I believe that when you have made this clear to her you have done enough for her, she will have to take that next step herself.
If necessary, you can make an appointment with her to go to the police together on a supposed date, then you will notice quickly enough if she really wants to be helped quickly and gladly.
If she doesn't accept this offer? When she comes with excuses? Then you really can't do much for her anymore, and you have done what is necessary.

(She started her own topic in which she said farewell)

Hello forum members and especially chatters.
I have just arrived home and soon I will move on to the next party again, but in between I wanted to do something for a short while.
I cancel my membership of this forum. I also won't chat anymore.
This has multiple reasons for me and yet as a last thing, I still want to do my talk for a short while.
Like a couple of people know in the meantime, I recently am 19 years old since a couple of months.
During the past year I have regularly stood behind the windows during the weekends to be able to pay for my study and rent. I entered a situation that I totally saw no way out anymore and I'm not averse to sex, so for me paid sex was the only last option.
I have definitely stopped now, I don't want to anymore and to be honest, I even can't do it anymore. So I'll never be working behind the windows anymore.
The men on this forum are not waiting for my, in their eyes often negative opinion. Unfortunately, I have seen and experienced too much misery and I have become too embittered by the fate of all these tens, perhaps even hundred girls whom I have spoken.
I also feel desperate when I joined discussions in for example a topic about fucking without a condom. I just only see these girls in front of me, who are forced by their 'boyfriend' to do things to earn as much money as possible.
As long as I stay on this forum I will continuously be confronted with the naive attitude of the men and I actually do slowly develop an aversion towards clients. This is not my intention. Also my feelings about the traditional man-woman relationships which have been weakened for a long time, start to emerge again. I am simply too old-fashioned to keep on gamboling on this forum. I don't want to spoil the pleasure for others with my strong views and why would somebody aged 50 listen to the opinion of such a young child as I am.
I can't say that I have always found the work terrible, I had many pleasant clients and with many I also often had many good conversations. Only during the last months it just didn't work out anymore and I only saw negative sides. The acting didn't succeed anymore, so of the men who walked by I only really allowed the types to come in whom really were my taste. I became more and more choosy every weekend
I was often on the chat box and I have spoken with a lot of people there, I also couldn't let all this completely go yet.
My new goal for 2007: pick up my normal life, continue my study and work hard to be able to pay my rent and everything anyhow.
So this is my real farewell, but once, if I have completely come to grips with the previous year, then I will start to help girls. Girls who don't do this work voluntarily and of whom so few people care about.
First I have to put my own life back on the rails now.
Clients: please be careful with what you are doing.. I am not against paid sex, but please take care that you treat the girls with respect. They are often such unstable and gullible girls. To report if you see something suspicious does hardly make sense, unfortunately I know everything about that.
I most certainly don't want to say that you are bad when you visit ladies of pleasure, absolutely not, but please.. just be careful a little bit.
Ladies: I know that many ladies come here who do private reception etc, that is something very different than behind the windows. So just do your thing as you like, use your mind while doing it and never do something against your will. Do you have problems? Seek help and ALWAYS maintain respect for yourself, your body and your health. Everybody has the value to be appreciated, also appreciate yourself.
Everybody: thank you that I could get one thing or the other out of my system by writing about it and I was also reasonably able to relieve things in the chat box, this was the start of my process of coping.
I wish everybody a very very happy and healthy 2007, I sincerely wish this to everybody.
I'm not able to completely let go.. I came here myself to this forum when I was on the verge of starting behind the windows. I mainly read positive things here and I decided to do it. There was nobody with whom I could really consult or could get my story off my chest in the beginning.
Hereby.. when somebody reads this and would gladly release her story.. I mean especially young girls with this, who have entered a similar shitty situation as I have: mail me, please seek contact with me. I won't try to save you, even if you only want to release your story.. that is always allowed. A year ago I couldn't release my story to nobody and that was really hard...

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